{"id":3235,"date":"2005-04-01T18:14:34","date_gmt":"2005-04-02T02:14:34","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/2005\/04\/01\/gothicbut-not-a-goth\/"},"modified":"2019-12-13T11:02:01","modified_gmt":"2019-12-13T19:02:01","slug":"gothicbut-not-a-goth","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/2005\/04\/01\/gothicbut-not-a-goth\/","title":{"rendered":"Gothic&#8230;but not a Goth"},"content":{"rendered":"<div class='__iawmlf-post-loop-links' style='display:none;' data-iawmlf-post-links='[{&quot;id&quot;:7324,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8579,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/347937.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8580,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/348300.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8581,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/348615.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8582,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/348809.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8583,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/349003.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;https:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/349003.html&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8584,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/ogremarco\\\/349003.html?thread=2273355#t2273355&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;https:\\\/\\\/ogremarco.livejournal.com\\\/349003.html?thread=2273355&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8585,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/chrisbynum&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;https:\\\/\\\/web-wp.archive.org\\\/web\\\/20050318091138\\\/http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com:80\\\/users\\\/chrisbynum\\\/&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-03-10 14:06:20&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:503},{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-03-30 14:25:27&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:403},{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-04-02 23:06:30&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:403},{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-04-07 11:58:50&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:503},{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-04-10 23:22:40&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:403}],&quot;broken&quot;:true,&quot;last_checked&quot;:{&quot;date&quot;:&quot;2026-04-10 23:22:40&quot;,&quot;http_code&quot;:403},&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:7183,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.livejournal.com\\\/users\\\/lemurlad&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:8586,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/www.savant-garde.com\\\/gother\\\/index2.html&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;},{&quot;id&quot;:6221,&quot;href&quot;:&quot;http:\\\/\\\/click.linksynergy.com\\\/fs-bin\\\/click?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;offerid=78941.10000170&amp;type=4&amp;subid=0&quot;,&quot;archived_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;redirect_href&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;checks&quot;:[],&quot;broken&quot;:false,&quot;last_checked&quot;:null,&quot;process&quot;:&quot;done&quot;}]'><\/div>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/\" title=\"Ogremarco\">Ogre<\/a>&#8216;s been running a &#8220;Kill Your Idols&#8221; week on his journal this week, asking people to take their favorite <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/347937.html\" title=\"Ogremarco: Kill Your Idols Week: Music\">musician<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/348300.html\" title=\"Ogremarco: Kill Your Idols Week: Film\">filmmaker<\/a>, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/348615.html\" title=\"Ogremarco: Kill Your Idols Week: Literature\">author<\/a>, and <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/348809.html\" title=\"Ogremarco: Kill Your Idols Week: Art\">artist<\/a> down a few notches. To wrap things up, today&#8217;s topic was &#8216;<a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/349003.html\" title=\"Ogremarco: Kill Your Idols Week: Your Scene\">your scene<\/a>&#8216;, which prompted <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/ogremarco\/349003.html?thread=2273355#t2273355\" title=\"chrisbynum: Winning the Hearts and Minds of the People\">this brilliant post<\/a> by <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/chrisbynum\/\" title=\"chrisbynum\">chrisbynum<\/a> that absolutely <em>nails<\/em> much of why I&#8217;ve never self-identified as &#8220;Goth&#8221;.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>\n  Goths, in general, are kind of pathetic. Goths over 25 are <em>really<\/em> pathetic. As a public service, you should all be made aware that there is a difference between conformity and just <em>growing the fuck up<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p>  The worst offense is self-identifying primarily as &#8220;a goth&#8221;; it is my biggest pet peeve: &#8220;Hi, I&#8217;m Vyxqwynn! I&#8217;m 29, I&#8217;m from Seattle, and <em>I&#8217;m a goth<\/em>&#8230;&#8221; I think &#8220;goth&#8221; should be an <em>aspect<\/em> of who you are, not <em>what<\/em> you are. I have been around this scene in Seattle for nearly a decade. I think I have a sincere appreciation of fundamental gothic principles and ideals, and many of my good friends are gothic in their styles and attitudes, but, hell no, I&#8217;m not a goth! More of a gothic cowboy, if anything, with a healthy does of old-school geek thrown in. After all, I own a horse and 19 seasons of <em>Star Trek<\/em> on DVD, but I do not have razor blade scars on my wrists. And besides, if you were <em>really<\/em> all that goth, you wouldn&#8217;t have to go around telling people all the time, now would you? :P<\/p>\n<p>  So be as gothi_c_ as you want to be &#8212; in your beliefs, your style, your self-expression, whatever &#8212; but, please, don&#8217;t be <em>a<\/em> goth&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>  To me, goth means two main things: 1) that subjective experience in any flavor is to be valued (this is actually a classical romantic ideal&#8230;), and 2) that settling for mediocrity is an affront to one&#8217;s own existence. These are the two principal gothic ideals I can really get behind. I think many self-professed &#8220;goths&#8221; have never considered either one of these issues and are simply too caught up in the superficial trappings of this fucked-up scene or in their own maladjusted affinity toward darkness, self-pity, and insatiable lust for attention of any kind to actually live gothic.<\/p>\n<p>  Y&#8217;know what the number one thing I hear goths talk about whenever they get together is? Fucking clothes.<\/p>\n<p>  Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I <em>love<\/em> clothes &#8212; including gothic clothes &#8212; but I&#8217;m not deluded enough to think my compulsion to own every expensive black leather or PVC Edward Scissorhands wearable I can snipe from someone on eBay somehow makes me superior to a guy wearing Dockers&#x2122;. If I had a nickel for every really deep conversation I&#8217;ve heard between two goths in the last three months, I couldn&#8217;t park on Broadway for 10 minutes&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>  So keep on keepin&#8217; on, batcavers, but, please, consider giving drama for drama&#8217;s sake a rest, and turn the attitude down a notch or so. I promise you&#8217;ll still be having plenty of fun, and you may actually have more energy to pursue the dark and important things in life that actually matter&#8230;\n<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Damn straight. Yes, I wear primarily black, I listen to a lot of dark music, I&#8217;ve been hanging around the gothic scene for years, and I spent years DJing at goth\/industrial\/alternative clubs in Anchorage&#8230;but I&#8217;ve <em>never<\/em> wanted to lay claim to the title of &#8220;Goth&#8221;. Gothic, sure, occasionally &#8212; but not Goth.<\/p>\n<p>For one thing, I&#8217;m not depressed enough.<\/p>\n<p>I don&#8217;t write enough bad angst-ridden poetry, either. ;)<\/p>\n<p>Unless <a href=\"http:\/\/www.livejournal.com\/users\/lemurlad\/\" title=\"lemurlad\">James<\/a> is reading this, in which case I&#8217;m <em>still<\/em> <a href=\"http:\/\/www.savant-garde.com\/gother\/index2.html\" title=\"Gother Than Thou\">too goth<\/a> for your punk ass, buck-o.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/click.linksynergy.com\/fs-bin\/click?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;offerid=78941.10000170&amp;type=4&amp;subid=0\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"iTunes\" border=\"0\" width=\"61\" height=\"15\" src=\"http:\/\/images.apple.com\/itunesaffiliates\/logos\/iTunes_sm_bdg61x15.png\" \/><\/a><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" alt=\"\" border=\"0\" width=\"1\" height=\"1\" src=\"http:\/\/ad.linksynergy.com\/fs-bin\/show?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;bids=78941.10000170&amp;type=4&amp;subid=0\" \/> &#8220;<a href=\"http:\/\/click.linksynergy.com\/fs-bin\/stat?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;offerid=78941&amp;type=3&amp;subid=0&amp;tmpid=1826&amp;RD_PARM1=itms%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZSearch.woa%252Fwa%252Fcom.apple.jingle.search.DirectAction%252FadvancedSearchResults%253FsongTerm=Black #1%26partnerId%3D30\" title=\"Search for 'Black #1' on the iTMS\">Black #1<\/a>&#8221; by <a href=\"http:\/\/click.linksynergy.com\/fs-bin\/stat?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;offerid=78941&amp;type=3&amp;subid=0&amp;tmpid=1826&amp;RD_PARM1=itms%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZSearch.woa%252Fwa%252Fcom.apple.jingle.search.DirectAction%252FadvancedSearchResults%253FartistTerm%253DType O Negative%26partnerId%3D30\" title=\"Search for Type O Negative on the iTMS\">Type O Negative<\/a> from the album <em><a href=\"http:\/\/click.linksynergy.com\/fs-bin\/stat?id=xLsJkztrnNY&amp;offerid=78941&amp;type=3&amp;subid=0&amp;tmpid=1826&amp;RD_PARM1=itms%253A%252F%252Fphobos.apple.com%252FWebObjects%252FMZSearch.woa%252Fwa%252Fcom.apple.jingle.search.DirectAction%252FadvancedSearchResults%253FalbumTerm=Bloody Kisses%26partnerId%3D30\" title=\"Search for Bloody Kisses on the iTMS\">Bloody Kisses<\/a><\/em> (1993, 11:15).<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ogre&#8217;s been running a &#8216;Kill Your Idols&#8217; week on his journal this week, asking people to take their favorite musician, filmmaker, author, and artist down a few notches. To wrap things up, today&#8217;s topic was &#8216;your scene&#8217;, which prompted this brilliant post by chrisbynum that absolutely _nails_ much of why I&#8217;ve never self-identified as &#8216;Goth&#8217;.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2043],"tags":[13],"class_list":["post-3235","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-personal","tag-life"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3235","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3235"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3235\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3235"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3235"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/michaelhans.com\/eclecticism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3235"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}